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please don't forget to become a fan of the show on facebook. next week, the founders of the company tried to get companies to reimages inthe way they produce commercials. but to get the first clients, they have to give a big discount. >> i think it is just being trance parent and communicating from the beginning that this is being sold at a discount. this should be worth x. we are doing this to build a relationship. >> how they made a big bet that paid off in the end. we make your business our business. we've all had those moments. when you lost the thing you can't believe you lost. when what you just bought, just broke.

or when you have a little trouble a long way from home... as an american express cardmember you can expect some help. but what you might not expect, is you can get all this with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership. good morning. from new york, i'm chris hayes. the u.s. secretary of state, john kerry, arrived in baghdad this morning on a surprise visit to iraq. his first since becoming secretary of state and pope plan sis at a palm sunday mass this morning. first of a week of ceremonies leading to easter. right now i want to talk about one of the most hotly debated police tactics in the country which was put on trial this week and n the federal court in manhattan. class action lawsuit against the

northbound police department oar its controversial policy of stopping, questioning and frisking people on the street, a tactic known as stop and frisk it began on monday and unfolded in dramatic fashion with whistle blower police officers testifying against the nypd and stop and frisk breaking down on the stand. thursday, one of the trial's most explosive moments the court heard a recording of a conversation between a patrolman and commanding officer of the stop and frisk policy. in which the commanding officer seemed to suggest skin color can be a deciding forecast tore in who is stopped. conversation was recorded by the parole officer in the south bronx 40th precinct. in a conversation the commanding officer, deputy inspector christopher mccormack, urges her honor to be more active and conduct more street stops in order to suppress violent crime. they discussed a crime-prone neighborhood in the bronx as an example. >> this is about stopping the right people, the right place, the right location. >> okay.

>> take mott haif wren where we had the most problems. robberies. >> right. >> who are they robbing? >> male blacks. i told you at roll call, i have no problem telling you this. male blacks, 14 to 20 2shgs 1. i said this at roll call. >> stop and frisk trial a major flash point in the city this week. also become a central issue, one likely the most hotly contested political race of third. the new york mayoral race. city's first mayoral race in 12 years without mike bloomberg spending large sums of his own money to overwhelm his opponents. as a result the field is crowded. it is also the best chance democrats have had in regaining the mayorality since last democrat held office in 1993. new york politics long has been considered generous because new york's economy and demographic contours different from those the rest of the country. there is a country growing more diverse and independent as income and inequality sigh rockets, more americans find themselves working low wage service jobs, looking more and more like new york.

many of the political problems we are grappling with, immigration, minimum wage, what the repost-recession economy should look like, policy, policing, are issues at the center of new york's mayoral race. my great pleasure to have with me four of the democratic candidates for mayor of the new york city, bill de blasio. sal albanese, former city councilman. bill thompson, former new york comptroller and nominee for mayor in 2009. john liu, current city comptroller. we reached out to christine quinn who is also running but could not join us today. gentlemen, thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> this trial, i think, is -- really explosive. and i thinks that really changed the contours the politics on this issue. i'm curious what your feeling is about what this means going forward about the stop and frisk policy and how do you -- my sense is that there's broad agreement that the current status quo has to change. am i right about that? >> yes. i think the trial of the indictment on the policy itself, we all -- understood that racial

proceed piling was so integral, just look at the results. almost everybody being stopped is black or brown. >> 80% of stop and frisk. >> more than that. something like 87%. not only that, even in the white neighborhoods, it is all minorities that are being stopped and frisked. there's no denying that this racial profiling going on here. and add to the pact that almost everybody who is being stopped, almost 700,000 in one year alone, almost everybody being stopped, has done absolutely nothing wrong. this is -- you know, this is not america. this is not democratic. >> confirmation after lot of this that we have been saying. this is perhaps a useful policing tool that's been misused and abused. that's occurred for years. so when you start to stop people based on purely what they look like and who they are, as you said, more than 9 on% of the people are black and hispanic. >> i think it is useful to be

improve pd we need intensive training of a police officer of what the appropriate constitutional methodology is of stop and frisk. assign them to patrols and interact with the community. they will trust. thirdly, i think we need to regulate, tax and legalize marijuana so the -- that's a huge reason, that's a -- i hi we immediate to -- legalize it, tax it, regulate it. >> this idea about useful but overused. i want to explore that idea. because i think that's been the -- that's sort of the line for a lot of people, christine quinn, said that before. previous communications. called it a useful tactic. should we just ban the tactic? should people not get stopped and frisked? >> i disagree. it is -- policing tactic that's been wildly overused. obviously in many cases using it in unconstitutional manner. look, now you need the reform, the approach, and we need a new

police commissioner. this is the difference i have certainly with christine quinn who wants to keep ray kelly, ray kelly has been the architect of the overuse and stop and frisk. we need inspector general. when we have had in new york city, think about magnitude here. hundreds of thousands of more stops a year. there was never a vote on that. never a public debate. >> comes back to, again, the need for a new mayor. and a mayor who understands. >> there is consensus at the table about that. >> new police commissioner. >> is that a shared view? >> i would not keep kelly. >> i'm not going make any decisions about police commissions until i get the job. all i can say is that what i do believe is that stop and frisk is a useful tool that does keep guns off the street. that's been proven across -- it has to be done constitutionally. cops need more training, intensive training in the academy. to improve it. >> easy to say that.

first of all, i guess there is consensus we need a new mayor. there isn't consensus on the issue of stop and frisk. i believe i'm the only one here at this table who believes that stop and frisk should be abolished because the mums don't bear out the facts. we -- the mayor and the police commission have claimed that stop and frisk has saved lives. that has -- led to guns being taken off the street. the fact of the matter is that there has been a minimal decrease in the number of murders in new york city. even as stop and frisks have gone up from something like 97,000 a year to 685 though thousand. you know, the number of guns being taken off the street, it is less than 1 in 1,000 cases. now, it is not -- i don't disagree it reduces crime. but so would 11:00 p.m. curfew, 10:00 p.m. curfew. at some point we have to understand that we live in a democratic society and people should not be stopped on the street. >> let me introduce -- interject. part of the issue here is this sense that there is a quota. it is not just that this -- a

discretional. this is a -- if people were watching this, not following the trial, it is amazing. have you these police officers, working police officers, so outraged by this. they find it so ridiculous what they are being asked to go. going to their commanding officers and taping them. this is a deal polanco testifying on the 20-1 quota. 20 sum sxons one arrest per month. not negotiable. ith their or you are going to become a pizza hut deliveryman was his testimony. that's a good sound bite. >> police officers said that you are removing the art of being a police officer from them. you are taking their discretion away. they know what to do. correct oversight should be there. at same point the quota, let's see, the indicators, performance indicators, i think that's the phrase that's used, should -- you know -- >> very careful about -- elimination of a constitutional

option of the police have. camden, new jersey, half the cops laid off in that city. gun violence up because there's no one -- these -- bad guys on the street -- if you do what john suggests, eliminate stop, question and frisk, constitutional option if done properly, you will have -- you will have -- >> did you think crime will go up more people carrying guns no doubt bit. >> quota situation has made it impossible for us to continue community policing. community policing depends on real communication and respect both ways between policing and the community. here's the other thing. practical courts understandably are getting deeper and deeper. >> they will render a judgment on this. >> it includes new york city because we didn't do our own oversight right. federal courts starting to that. >> because of bad policy, the federal government is looking at this. this is a policy that has gone wild. that has -- >> why has it gone wild?

>> it is all a numbers game. >> i know it is a numbers game. what i have seen in the trajectory of this is this was happening -- it says something about the way the power works in the city. this was happening in -- every 15-year-old black kid in the bronx and in brooklyn and queens. and in harlem. >> creating so much outrage. >> yes. but why has it taken so long for that outrage to manifest itself? >> as stop and frisks have gone up and up and up in recent years, the outrage is bubbling over to the point where now it is just unacceptable. amount of division that has created between police and community members has gotten to the point i believes the making it less safe for everybody. meanwhile, it is distracting resource. >> in 2009. it wasn't as if it wasn't spoken about and hasn't been spoken about. >> ran in 2009. >> what's occurred over a period of time is the numbers continue to escalate. almost 200,000 stop and frisks and wait a minute, there's something wrong. >> tipping point.

>> there has been an absolute deference to the police commissioner in new york city in a way we have not seen anywhere else in the country and this is a big part of the problem. you don't see the president of the united states say to the commander of the joint chiefs do whatever you want. here in new york city, the police commissioner has been without oversight or without any kind of reigning in. that's how a policy like this got so far. >> inspector general overseeing the police department. i want to play a bit of sound of mayor bloomberg, who very critical of the idea of that. we will hear that after we take this break. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

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critical of the idea of tha there is a proposal to the inspector general to oversee the new york city police department. here is what mayor michael bloomberg had to say about it. >> i don't think any rational person would say we immediate

would compete police commissioners. will would be questions in the ranks of police officers about who is really in charge. whose policies they should follow. that kind of breakdown and the chain of command would be disastrous for public safety. we cannot afford to play lebs year poll tibbs with the safety of our city. and we cannot afford to roll back the progress of the past 20 years. maybe no miss take about it. this bill jeopardizes that progress and will put the lives of new yorkers and our police officers at risk. >> bill, since you seem to support it, what's your response to that. >> we need an inspector general because stop and frisk is a perfect example how a huge policy that faebs hundreds of thousands of people negatively, innocent people, put in place without any public debate, without any oversight. because the history of the city, again, is police commissioner makes those decisions, the mayor the city council, defer that and inspector general would be -- overright but then -- look. there's political means to about

pressure and there's also mayoral elections. the -- this is -- mayor won the election. it is not like there was month democratic input of this. it was the -- by the mayor's bank account. >> i think -- this proposal is a shell game. what the inspent tore general because -- the city council has the ability to do the oversight of the police department which my colleagues, bill and john, have never taken the opportunity to subpoena. they have subpoena power. >> we don't have subpoena power now. that's not right. city council did. we didn't happen to be the speaker of the city council. >> you don't have to be the speaker. you guys never requested. you never were on record as say you wanted the oversight over the police department. other agencies use it. this is political theater. that's what this is. they are punt the ball to an unelected official. it is not democratic.

>> apoint of order by the mayor. >> not democratic and will not proceed teb civil liberties. >> openness and transparency. you know, i would like to see the less itself, exactly what it means. i have a couple of questions about that. in the end, this, again, is a question -- the question of who the police commissioner is. i know there is going to be a new mayor. but who the mayor of the city of more is and making sure that -- >> you don't think it is a structural problem. you think it is a personnel problem. this is what we are disagreeing about. you are saying structural problem. >> first of all, chris, put the -- inspector doi, the -- department of investigation, already works for the mayor. so you are not -- this person will not be independent. inspent or general they are propose. he will be -- he will be -- >> he will have a pulley pulpit or she will have a bully pulpit and lot of independents. this will be a high proceed pile job with a lon set term. that's a misreading of it.

in this city, oversight of the police, every single time we think we made progress. >> i remember working on it. >> wonderful this that got immediately undercut by giuliani and never come to full strength again. this is why we immediate something stronger and different. >> john -- >> chris. you know, i -- support it last year when the council members from posed what was called the community safety act which is an act of four bills one of which includes the inspector general thing. really, the more -- more you think about it tshs more -- the less sense and inspector general actually makes. you know what, sal, sometimes you are right. the fact of the matter is that -- >> good to hear that. >> the fact of the matter is that the mayor, it is not like the mayor doesn't talk to the police commissioner. >> so i'm -- at the end of the day, if i'm mayor, i'm going to be drebti idirecteding the poli commissioner. >> we have three people at the table who think this is

fundamentally a personnel issue and one that thinks there is something structural and a structural solution. i want to turn to another issue. paid sib days legislation. there is a bill -- >> pet peeve for millions of new yorkers. >> yes. no. no, no, exactly. yes. >> you are not -- >> you are not allowed to have paid sib leave. >> there is this bill that -- supermajority support. new york city council. mandate five, just five, 65 day as year, paid sick days. up to five every employee in new york city and there are millions of northbounders who are working without any paid time off whatsoever. public health safety concern, food workers that have to come in. even when they have -- >> even when they are i can when they are sick, they have the virus. >> when -- people are sib, when th -- sick, they can't do that much and wind up getting other people i can i want to talk

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the speaker of the city council is christine quinn, also running -- we invited her. her people said they couldn't make the schedule work. but she has been preventing this paid sick day bill from coming to a vote on the floor. even though it appears by all accounts to have the votes. >> for three years. >> for three years. it has been three years. here she is talking about why now is not the time for paid sick leave. >> think about your household budget. you can take on another bill if you have a little money. you can restructure your budget. you can't do that if you don't have any money. it is not a question for me of this. it is a question of when. >> i recognize that gentleman to her right there. the idea here -- >> in favor of paid sick. >> everyone sheer in favor of it. >> yes. >> no matter what your position is, as one member of the city council why not just let it come

to a rote on the floor. let each member decide that bill on its mayor fits why not? >> this week -- i have written speaker quinn. she said -- she is in favor of it. it is a question of when. she is concerned about the economy right now. wrote her this week. fine. i testified this week in favor of paid sick. what i said at that hearing is then put in are a one-year delay. if you are concerned about the economy, where things are at now, put a one-year del nay but 'let's move the bill. when we are see sing one person. one individual blocking the wishes of not just members of what majority -- majority of the members of the city council but the people of the city of new york. i think it is in new york city that we -- it has been kind of the progressive capital so many -- for so many years across the country to hold this up. >> couldn't disagree more on the one year. say that at one of the forums. during the depression we didn't say we will help people when things get better. help people when things are tough. right now people need paid sick leave. millions of new yorkers do not have any coverage.

this is a now problem. quinn is not move thing bill which is profoundly undemocratic and obviously she didn't want to be here today to talk about it. the daily news reported this week in a she had received $370,000 in donations from literally from folks in the private sector who sign order to a letter opposing paid sick days and are working intensely to stop this legislation. as a great man once said, follow the money. >> yes. >> this is a workers' right bill. people shouldn't have to choose between being healthy, going to work. i sponsored the first wage bill in the city's history. very emphatic about this issue. we put 70,000 workers benefited. $3 billion in their pockets for the second living wage bill law in the country. this is tie flood that. we shouldn't have workers be subjected to this kind of ridiculous -- not being paid when they are getting sick. doesn't make any sense bill and

i happen to agree on the need for paid sick leave. the right thinking new yorkers will agree. at the same point businesses -- you are looking at businesses and small businesses, particularly that need time to help phase it in. you are concerned about the economy continuing to come back and not doing damaging to small businesses. the year will give them time to plan and prepare. that happens to be -- >> i wouldn't think -- >> let's get this done. >> i'm sorry, bill. i wouldn't want people to think that there are no small businesses that give their employees paid sick leave. >> sure. >> there's very conscientious employers who realize that their biggest asset in their business is the employees. this kind of bill would level the playing field for small businesses across the city. i have been thinking about this quite a bit. i actually think that -- i actually think that chris quinn is in favor of this. for some reason -- >> she. >> somebody is pulling strings behind her that's preventing. >> it she is not here to defend herself. i don't want to speculate on her

motives. >> one-year delay, if that's the concern she expressed that concern, removes that consideration and should move that bill forward. >> let's talk about this bill. for businesses that are five employees -- under five employees, exempt. it does -- >> other cities passed similar bills. >> philadelphia, portland. the point is the smallest businesses bisz business the amendments, smallest businesses are left out because that's -- clear they would have a particular challenge. here is the point about watering down this bill. i said this week that speaker quinn is the world's leading expert on watering down legislation. we can see the signs already of a bill that will -- have a long lag period or will cut out hundreds of thousands of pokes who immediate coverage. because she is going to defer to some of the patrons in the business community. the point here is that -- we have a million people in need that they have a single day that they are -- literally under the laws of new york city, they could lose their job. that's unacceptable and why we need a bill that reaches everyone.

>> the threshold for this to kick this is higher in terms of -- >> not in philadelphia or portland. >> this bill has five or more. i think that can be a little dangerous to small businesses operating on very small -- very thin margin. i would opt for higher number. >> sal, you said something i want to -- is a good trance chigs is talking about living wage bill. something that i -- i feel very passionatably as someone that grew up in new york city and bronx. my mom was an educator, worked in parts and administration for the district of education. the vanishing middle class in new york city, it is really a staggering thing to hold. having watched the trajectory of this city, the rising inequality, the losses of middle class jobs and low paying service jobs and then the -- massive increase in the cost of housing. i want to talk about how to stop new york from becoming essentially 1%, 99% city right after this. way the bristles moe to the way they clean,

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really remarkable statistics from the fiscal policy, national employment law project. about the contours of job creation and job destruction in new york city in the period of the aftermath of the financial crisis. so from wait, july 2008, november 2012, low-wage industries paying below 45,000 a year add eed 164,000 jobs. middle wage pay lost 140,000 jobs. high-wage industries lost 20,000 jobs. massive expansion at the bottom of low-paying, largely service sector jobs in the city. and a real decimation of middle class jobs in the city. at the same time that -- for reasons that i can never quite figure out from economic perspective housing costs here just continue to go up and up and up despite the fact that the

housing -- housing costs went way down elsewhere and other parts of the country and this creates a -- just a situation in which is just tenable to living -- and pay your rent and send your kid to a good school. you all agree. >> that's why you continue to see people priced out each and every day of the city of new york. some of sit the policies of the city of new york. they contribute to that. some of it is -- as you look to create new jobs in the city of new york, and education system that's not producing, graduates who are going to take those higher paying jobs. it really is and mane while had you a mayor who is focused in one area, who doesn't look at the middle class of working new yorkers for the last 12 years. >> in the country is a big problem. in new york city, bigger than the rest of the country. growing faster. and the problem is that the economic development policies under this administration have been erased. it is all about creating as many jobs as possible, almost all of

them are at minimum wage. that's been the -- >> let's show this graphic real quick. 10% of income went to the top 1% in 1980. by 2011, 20% of the income. this is -- now the -- bottom line is the united states. the top line is new york city. where that share for the top 1% is much, much, much higher. you see that. it is -- even more unequal here in new york. >> that's why i passed the living wage bill in 1996. nothing has improved since then. we have -- we have people working earning $7.50 an hour that were living in shelters. they are working full time and can't afford housing in the city. we have to raise minimum wage. >> so here is -- i want to turn to solutions. that's one concrete thing. living wage legislation. minimum wage. >> in the city's contract,

expand living wages. the city elects out billions of dollars in contracts. those contract issues paid people living wages that are busting millions like the mayors do with the bus drivers. >> let's talk about living wages. huge opportunity for us because we are subsidizing the firms with very big amounts of money and not getting much back. quinn, another example, watered down the legislation. reached 400 workers. we need a real expansion of living wage legislation. we have to help low-wage workers organize. this is something that the city government can actually push the private sector on. combination of paid sick day which is helps poem keep their jobs, living wage legislation which raises wage levels for a certain number of workers and helps the mark net general. and assisting and organizing efforts for low-wage workers starts to change. >> every member of the -- >> as well as. you start to look at how do we keep people in the city of new york. the city of new york is government -- the government needs to focus on building middle income housing. that helps to keep people in the

city of new york. right now it is -- you know, they are trying to figure out new ideas to be able do more luxury housing. the housing authority, continues to be wasteland and really -- city administration, housing authority, head, continues to allow thousands of apartments to sit on the side that are vacant. city of new york needs to help focus on creating housing. that helps to keep people -- >> what does this focus mean? how do you operationalize that? >> housing authority, proposal to put it on the grounds of housing authority land. instead of that, it is great opportunity to do middle income housing. create some income diversity within the housing authority. great opportunities if that's the focus. right now the focus doesn't exist in the city. >> housing has always been expensive. let's not kid ourselves in new york city. but over the last decade, housing has become that much more unaffordable for now 50% of the households living in new york city. the pace of housing construction, even though mayor bloomberg had ambitious plans, it has not kept pace with the growth of the city. that's what is driving the rents

up through the roof. and the -- other thing is you asked for solutions about the economic development and job creation. first and foremost, we have to get rid of these -- hundreds of millions of dollars, sometimes billions of dollars, of taxpayer subsidies given to big corporations, privilege at developers, who promise to create jobs. then through some of the audit stuff that i conducted, didn't create jobs. the bloomberg administration never checked back to see if they actually created the jobs they promised. the other thing we need to do is we need to help middle class people. we immediate to help working men and women take more -- take home more of their pay. would you believe that in the city of new york, we -- essentially have a flat income tax. something that's -- roundly rejected everywhere else in the country. you pay the same amount of tax. i propose a tax system that's far more progressive. >> i don't think we do have a fair -- flat income tax.

i disagree with john and p it is progress. >> slightly gradual. >> don't forget, new york city now with the -- with new york state increasing the tax rate p. you are talking about some people paying 54% of their income in taxes. it is pretty high. i don't think that's a big problem. i think we -- one of the things i want -- always point out when i passed the living wage law, giuliani called it forgive sxlus would destroy the economy. nothing happened. minimum -- would need to raise the minimum wage. it has a multiplier effect. it helps -- we are all better off. >> let me play devil's advocate. you are all -- >> while you are doing that can i have a scone? >> yes. >> thank you. >> you are all on the democrats. when we are talking about the solutions and income and inequality, let me channel the voice of the mayor or -- some other new york billionaire. which is like -- you know, you -- all well and good. you know. all well and good. soak the rich and make the income taxes more graduated. you are going to -- no, no.

i know. ullman date high perfect wages for businesses and you want the business to get everybody five days sick leave. aren't we going to destroy the engine, miracle, the economic miracle, that is new york city? which keeps the city thriving. this is argument that comes up every time. >> there is no evidence that the rich will thering away from new york city because we are asking more of them. i have proposed, for example, upper income tax, folks that make a half million or more, we can fix our school systems and can have early childhood education. real after school programs we have been movation way from because of budget cuts. bloomberg, when i said that, exact same response you would expect. from bloomberg. he said, feed people, the rich are going to leave new york city. it is going to undermine our economy. there is no evidence of that. in fact, what's undermining our economy is this huge income disparity and school system that's failing to help people be

ready for the -- >> cookie cutters here. >> no. >> disagree with bill's proposal to tax people more in the city. in manhattan -- >> yes, they are people, too. >> believe it or not, middle class. >> half is not middle class. >> all that -- hold that. people watching this, other parts of the country really throwing things at the television when you say that. >> bottom line is that we are -- new york state, state imposing high tax as they should is -- if you are earning over $400,000 a year, paying 54% of your income. >> relative on other places in the country. >> go over 50%, becomes counterproductive. what bill is doing is counterproduce. >> hold that thought. i want you to respond to my

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you want to respond to my skepticism of the liberals of the tax and spend. >> in the end it comes down to what we try to do in new york city. new york city used to be the city where immigrants and those came here to worked in lower pay jobs and moved up the economic ladder. it appears right now as if the rungs of the ladders, some are being pulled out. we are seeing low-paid and low-income workers who aren't moving up the ladder who are being kept down which why you can -- >> is there -- how much is the business environment of the city and how much of the decisions being mid at the margin by whether it is wealthy people or people coming up businesses or somewhere else, how much is that affected? what tipping point is there when things like in positions and mandates like paid sick leave or higher taxes push people over that marginal line and decide not to open -- >> decree eighting opportunity, creating that path to the middle class of new york city, only helps create a stronger city.

what you are seeing is new york city being made weaker. as we saw by the grass. the exodus of middle income workers. that's killing the city. middle mcindividuaclass individ backbone of the city. drying up bit by bit. s it is better to be the people of the city of new york. >> we have policies that make it attractive to come to new york. new york city is always going to be a best nation for people from around the country, around the world. and we have to make it's easier for not only businesses and no only the big companies, but the mom and pops. i have called for the elimination of some of these tax breaks, big corporations get. mom and pop stores never get. not only do they pay their share of taxes, but they get -- >> what are they? >> given violations. insurance companies in new york city are exempt from general corporation tasks p.m. how many small businesses do you know of who are -- exempt from general corporation tasks. i have to say something about

the personal income also. sal, i will be happy to give you a lesson on this it has been 15 years. >> fact of the matter is a person that makes $30,000 a year in new york city pays something like 3.3% of their income in city income tax. a person that makes $30 million a year pays something like 3.7%. yeah, they are not exactly equal but you go from 3.3% to 3.7%. >> that's not true. >> it is over 5%. >> no, it is absolutely not over 5%. >> to the tipping point. i think we have to recognize the city is stuck on a lot of levels. this income disparity, lack of opportunity problem, and one of the reasons i say you need to tax the wealthy is because if you don't fix the school system, a lot just can't change if you don't have early childhood education. after school. up can't allow pathway opportunity for young people. the investment oriented strategy, which i say is -- we

have extraordinary tools in new york city. when we tax the wealthy -- that will get bus $530 million a year, just for those two needs in our schools, if we use our pension fund investments -- >> pre-k. >> and after school. pension fund investments on john's watch, up to $135 billion now. pension fund dollars new york city controls. but with the laissez faire policies of bloomberg, we haven't used our pension fund dollars to create affordable housing in the city which other jurisdictions do. new york city, strangely, has become unprogress enough terms of what government can do to effect equity, economic equity, i say there is a keynesian approach that works when you have a local government this big. city with this much wealth. keynesian approach that works today for that. >> i support the keynesian approach but very careful about local taxes. the local level -- you have to be very careful. people can move to connecticut and new jersey and save literally tens of thousands of dollars in taxes.

we don't want to drive those people out of the city. it will create -- the opposite effect what bill wants to do. i'm a big believer -- universal. >> let me interject. this is an empirical question of higher marginal rates producing exodus. there has been literal tour on this. >> not much. >> there has been? in new jersey that suggests the predicted effects of exodus did not materialize. that's not definitive. literature is not that robust. this is an empirical question at what level and will it affect them. >> we already have -- again, this still comes back to we can debate this and can do this for a couple of hours. it comes back to what are the policies, what comes out of city hall, what's the mayor do? we talk about housing. we talk about education and education system that continues to fail. we talk about a number of different things. what are the policies? mall businesses. city of new york squeezes those small businesses and hits them with fines and penalties. pushes half of them and number

of them out of business. what are the policies that come out of city hall? >> elasticity for a second. things that drive people, including the wealthy, out of the city, it is not the marginal tax rate. it is going to be the quality of li life, safety in neighborhoods. >> i want to turn to power in the city. power, particularly in the first election that we have had without a -- candidate that can really seem fund the way bloomberg has in the regime of the current clam campaign finance. hi, i'm amy for downy unstopables

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ars, our country won't be able to compete globally. what uncle sam needs now are more good teachers. are you up for it? you can help kids graduate. the more you know. new york city has some of the strictest finance campaign history in the country. two associates of yours, john, former campaign treasure and fund-raiser are set to face charges april 15. they are accused of fraud, essentially doing an end run around those donation caps by assembling straw donors

illegally. and -- you have not been charged or -- with anything or indicted or found of any wrongdoing. it has been a huge item that's -- >> huj distraction. it has been a huge cloud. it has been more than a year. their trials are finally coming to hopefully fruition. i'm looking forward to it because i think that the more facts come out about this the better it will be for the public and better it will be for the two people, better it will be for me and my campaign. look. this is an investigation that according to news reports have gone on for almost four years. a pull two years elapsed before they then decided to try to go after these two individuals that they are now putting up for trial. it has been a travesty of justice. >> did you at any point have knowledge of or engage in any efforts to surpass -- campaign finance laws? >> absolutely not. i have to raise funds. i'm not michael bloomberg. i don't know enough money on my own. i pride myself on having raised my ethical bars higher anybody else in the city. i don't accept contributions

from people doing business with the city of new york. i don't accept contributions from wall street or anybody who might be eyeing some business with our pension funds because i think that's unethical. i raised those bars. yet, some how they have gone after me for years. almost four years they have -- interrogated thousands of my contributors and supporters. they have examined a million documents. they have gone so far as to tap my own cell for for extended period of 18 months. with less than six months to the election they have to put up or shut up. >> now, sal, i want to turn to you. i'm trying to manage the clock here. you had news. you want to make here about something you are calling for, something dear to my heart, on the issue of transportation which is another huge issue in the city. >> issues being ignored on a national basis. when i become mayor i want to organize mayors for mass transit because it is essential to cities across the country. it affects the economy. the economic quality of the

city. secondly, it is -- it is an air quality issue. weigh want to get people out of their cars. thirdly, you create living wage jobs. i don't think that there is a constituency for it. they don't have lobbyists. people use mass transit. organize mayors around the country to go to washington and raise our voice for adequate funding of mass trance. >> it what you are seeing there is a graphic of where funding for mass transit comes from and it is the federal government has gone up a little bit but really state and local have to take more and more share. huge item of the city. new york city subway system, one of the miracles and history of the world. most incredible thing that it works all the time. day and night. one fare. cost of a slice of pizza. >> all it takes is a 10% shift in federal transportation funding. away from highway construction to mass transit. it will solve all the problems. >> in new york, you know, looking for ways to be able to fund mass transit, i suggested it for a few years now, we do two things. reinstate commuter tax so those in new jersey and connecticut and long island can pay in and

help support. >> good luck in albany. >> it is not for the city of new york. it is for mass transit, the entire region as well as, you know, in -- looking at a registration fee increase for the 12 covered counties based on weight. all that together generates between $1 bn 5 billion to $2 billion in mass trance. >> it the big picture here is what is happening in washington is a disinvestment in our cities and disinvestment in infrastructure and mass transit. a spokesperson for urban america, changing the actual debate nationally with other governors and mayors and the absence of that. absence of that, bloomberg hasn't been able to be that voice because he is -- doesn't fit. calling for money for mass transit, working people. the next mayor has to push that nationally general did a. >> really a pleasure to have you here today. i enjoyed it. >> congratulations on your move up. >> thank you very much. good politician. i want to thank bill de blasio,

former city councilman, sal albanese. bill thompson and john liu. they are all running for mayor of new york city. thank you so much. i enjoyed having you here. >> good to be here. >> next, dan savage, up next. do we have a mower? no. a trimmer? no. we got nothing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday. yes, maybe a little bit over here. this spring, take on more lawn for less. not bad for our first spring. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get ortho home defense, a special buy at just $6.88. this is so so soft. hey hun, remember you only need a few sheets. hmph! [ female announcer ] charmin ultra soft is so soft you'll have to remind your family they can use less.

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bruising, bleeding, or paleness. since enbrel helped relieve my joint pain, it's the little things that mean the most. ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biologic medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. hello from new york. chris hayes with dan savage, author of "savage love." and urvashi, or of irreversible revolution." the director of the engaging transition project at columbia law school center of gender and sexuality law. remarkable social and political progress we have seen on tissue of same-sex marriage in recent years hit milestones in week. a record high 58% of americans

now believe it should be legal tore gay and lesbian couples to get married. only 36% said it should be illegal. that's a complete and total reversal of just a decade ago in the same poll, same poll, found that 55% of americans opposed same-sex charge and 41% supported it. same day hilly clinton announced she now supports same-sex marriage. >> bt americans are our colleagues, our teachers, our soldiers, our friends, our loved ones. and they are full and equal citizens and deserve the rights of citizenship. that includes marriage. that's why i support marriage for lesbian and gay couples. i support it personally and as matter of policy and law. embedded in a broader effort to

advance equality and opportunity for lgbt americans and all americans. >> in a report released monday by the republican national committee's growth and opportunity project, party strategist warned the gop's institutional views on the lgbt issues have become a threshold issue and may be alienating younger voters. for the gop to appeal to younger voters, we do not have to agree on every issue but we do need to make sure young people do not see the party as a totally intolerant of alternative points of view. issues involving the treatment and rights of gays and for many younger voters these issues are a gateway into the party as a place they want to be. the gop at least conscious of the cost of its extreme views on lgbt issues. seems the poll six have permanently shifted. town hall associatal and political process may not be decided this week before the supreme court which oral arguments on tuesday on california's proposition 8 which bans gay marriage in the state

and on the federal defensive marriage tact following day. cases resolve around for constitutional issues. it is such a great pleasure to have you two here. you just -- what did you say, urvashi? >> i was listening to that for the tenth time. i turned to her. sometimes i have to pinch myself. there has been such a sea change so quickly i think even those of us who have been involved in the movement for decades are shocked by what seems to be the downbreak. >> did you know, like all overnight sensations, this moment is the result of real hard work. and decades and decades of real good organizing and good strategies to change rules and to change the practices, and enforcement of the rules and change norms. and we are seeing all of that come together now. >> the norms to me, though, that are -- i mean, the -- it is interesting to think about a social movement in each of those channels. sort of the claims you make from

the state and -- those claims that you make from the state can be through the democratic politics where you try on assembled coalitions, between the legal channels, right in which you don't have to have a majority position. civil rights not put up for a vote. right. that's right. >> frequently. >> frequently although now what has happened is that this sea change meant they can be successfully put up for a vote. how -- but the third part of it is this interpersonal thing. dan, you said this thing the last time you were on the show, you said the superpower lgbt people have, inherently mixed among the population. >> we are born into the families of the, you know, oppressor class. for lack of any better term. gay people are born to straight parents. the most dash single most for political act of any lgbt person can take is to be out to family and friends. we saw in ohio with senator portman the difference that can make. it can open someone's eyes. republican failure of empathy.

senator portman wasn't for marriage when other people's children were allowed to marry, other people's children were gay. now that he has gay child, he sees the justice in gay marriage. we will take the support however we can get it. it shouldn't take people's kids come out but often that moves people. >> i have come to the conclusion, for me, personally, i think this is something that we should allow people to do, to get married and have the joy and the stability of marriage that i have had for over 26 years. i want all three of my kids to have, including our son who is gay. my son came to my wife and i and told us he was gay. and that it was not a choice. you know, he -- it is just part of who he is and has been that way ever since he can remember. >> what's interest being that clip, two things. not to be too contrarian about it. i'm not in the same movement as rob portman. i'm happy that he loves his gay son and wants to now eradicate a

barrier. so many things he still stands for are -- to the lives of many lgbt people. it is a weird, perverse thing to see that clip. >> wait until he finds out his daughter is a woman. some movement on the rights of women from rob portman. >> that superpower effect doesn't seem to work in this -- in the same way. right? there was -- portman thing was pol polarizing precisely in people are saying we will take the support any way we can. you are still -- just because this one individual thing happened in your life, i'm happy for you and i'm happy found the wisdom to accept that for what it is but there is a broader agenda you are still tied to. >> there are people that it will not touch the economic hardship or racial disparities experienced by trans people or people of color. some argues it sets it back. given the history of marriage. but -- you know, i think that

there's so much a bigger agenda these issues don't cover. one of the things that's interest being portman's conversion and the moment, this moment we are in, with all these allies coming forward, and saying we support marriage equality, i think marriage has made us comprehensible to straight people in a way that no other issue did. in good ways and bad way. >> explain that. >> made us more legible. when we were sexual outlaws back in the day -- >> i remember a point in time. >> i remember him when. >> barred us. >> i'm telling you. they did. that would have been a gay marriage. >> month. >> when we -- when we were central outlaws -- when we -- when the gay issues started to emerge publicly, when gay people started to advocate for ourselves, we were seen as sexual doo sexual deviants and outlaws. the marriage has won usual ice

and domesticating in other way. >> explain that. we talked about this last time you were here. i was like -- is there something lost in the loss of deviancy? i'm not saying deviant -- as a -- as sort of different ways of having relationships with other people and different sexual practices, et cetera, that is -- that stretches beyond what, you know, normal. >> straight people say all the time access to marriage rights and write your own ticket and go your own way. i have two older straight brothers. one is married and has children. one of whom has a long-term female partner that don't want to get married. straight people can do their own way. straight people can be married and swingers. you can be married and not have children. children aren't definitional for straight people. i don't think that as gay people move into merry christmas, that we are going to be straighter than the straights are. or -- approach marriage any differently. marriage is what the two people in any one marriage say that it is. and i think the gay people are going to be create and define

their marriages in ways that are true to what it means to be gay. even to it being still sexual outlaws. >> incorporation of gay people in marn, i mean, what it does is, it creates a second class status for people who are not married, though. worry about that. gay movement once fought for a very broad set of family protections. you recognize the rights of single people. we were talking in the break about -- health insurance. and how criminal it is that it is tied to marital status for some people. people lose it if they get divorce. >> i have seen this. i have seen this in just a short span of -- you know, the last, say, ten years in which -- places had -- domestic partner benefits. that was -- broadly construed across straight folks and marriage -- gay folks, right? and in states where you have sort of progressive employers who had domestic partnership benefits for health care, in which marriage becomes legalized, that goes away. right? they say okay, well, now we will

just use this one definition, the state's definition which is our definition, which is marriage. that is what confers the -- benefit. >> and that's criminal. you shouldn't lose your health care. your kids couldn't lose his or her health care because the parent with health insurance through his employer dies. gets run over by a truck. there are much more for rights that marriage confers on same-sex couple, including the right to designate and name your next of kin. there are a lot of lgbt people, particularly working class, poor, and often lgbt people of color, with hostile families and have a family sweep in at the last minute during medical crisis and end of your life, distant cousin you never met and take all your property, shared property from your life partner, be the -- ability to name next of kin with a $50 marriage license opposed to a 10,000 pile of legal documents, gives social justice component to marriage

rights. that's frequently not acknowledged by the left. >> i want to ask you guys to get in a time machine and think about what gay politics as such looks like 20 years from now. doubletree by hilton. where the little things mean everything. there's a lot i had to do... watch my diet. stay active. start insulin... today, i learned there's something i don't have to do anymore. my doctor said that with novolog® flexpen, i don't have to use a syringe and a vial or carry a cooler. flexpen® comes prefilled with fast-acting insulin used to help control high blood sugar when you eat. dial the exact dose. inject by pushing a button. no drawing from a vial.

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we are going to talk about the two huge cases before the supreme court this week which are monumental. i should probably put my microphone on. given the fact that the trajectory of public opinion is what it is, i'm really curious what you think. i'm curious the two of you with the perspective you have about the -- social movement for equality, what politics looks like after the marriage? what's what is that -- what is gay politics after marriage? >> well, i think that it is going to be like a -- i worry it is going to be two-tiered where some people will have access to lots of rights and privileges

because they live in certain states, because they are of an economic status where we can access and assert our rights. other people that are not really touched by these issues of marriage are going to continue to face overcriminalization and, you know, stop and frisk. all these other issues that are facing significant parts of our communities. i worry about the -- economic disparity of racial disparities, expressing itself even more. demobilization in our movement, history of other social movements shows when you win a big one, it kind of -- people go it is done. i can relax now. and you know what, it is not done. there is a right wing that wants to eradicate gay people, culturely and politically and physically. we need to be vigilant about that. and you are right. dan is right. there's 29 states with no form alley quality of any kind. there's nondiscrimination laws that have to be enacted, problem of school bulling and harassment. >> after prop 8 there was like some headlines of the advocate and i thought it was a horrible

headline, gays are the new black. gay is the new abortion. we will never be over. in america it touch owes sex and sexuality and sexual freedom, a huge part of the country's population, gop base, is going to fight back. >> that's a fascinating -- that's a fascinating analogy, abortion. i think it is fascinating because we had some folks -- >> abortion access to birth control, women's freedom, women's rights, gay rights, it is all about sexual control. and it is all -- thing that -- this anger about sexual recreational sex. and you are having abortions because you had sex for fun and didn't want to have babies. using birth control which rick santorum has a problem with, having sex for the wrong reasons which is 99.9% of the sex people have, connection, release. that links gay sex, too, abortion, gay people, gay sex. all link bid religiously

inspired anger people having sex for fun and not for god. >> there is this civil rights progression you can see of winning thee kind of institutional legal battles. the abortion -- fascinating one. >> has to be defended. you know, the other thing is that the right wing has shown a very deep reservoir of funding and it has a strong base. motivated. and it feels that it has right on its side. i. >> i have to say happening what's on the right what's happening, there is a big generational difference. and there is a real civil war battle brewing. i mean, young republican right wing activists, you know, even the stuff happening for cpac. >> is that a rebranding strategy? >> i trust it. the reason i trust it is because the young conservatives that i interact with genuinely think that -- genuinely support marriage equality. i don't think that -- i think

there is a strategic component to it. but the young conservatives that i have been in touch with and that's a self-selecting group, obviously, so -- broadly representative. but they genuinely think that -- everyone should be able to get married. >> you know, they want their -- supportive of the right to marry but for shredding the social safety net. >> but that's my point. my point is that if -- what happens to gay politics if that win, with it, i think what you are saying, you are saying there is something essential and -- at the core of the right of reactionary politics. that it is going to be opposed to your interests. right? as gay folks. >> with the wild card of gay children of conservatives that we are going to be born into every family in the country. enough generations go. every family is going to have one of us. that's where there may be a separation from the abortion issue because there is a lot of people in conservative families, lot of women in conservative families, that had abortions but their families don't know they had abortions. denial about it.

uncab be in denial about the fact your daughter is married to a woman. >> urvashi, i'm really glad to have you back at the table today. urvashi vaid from columbia law school. supreme court and gay marriage, big one, this week. after this. saving money? [ kids ] yeah! ok. if you saved enough money, what would you do with it? i would buy an island made out of candy. an island made out of candy? it would be like sand full of sugar. sand full of sugar? the water could be made out of like soda, and when you take a shower it could be made out of like hot fudge. ooooo. what about the animals? what would they be made out of? um, i'm assuming they'd be made out of candy? [ male announcer ] it's not complicated. saving is better. switch to at&t and your family can save up to 100 dollars a month with mobile share. ♪ when her sister dumped me. oh dad, you remember my friend alex? yeah. the one that had the work done... [ male announcer ] sometimes being too transparent can be a bad thing. this looks good! [ male announcer ] but not with the oscar mayer deli fresh clear pack. it's what you see is what you get food.

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primer, concealer and foundation, all in one. get the longwear that survives the 9 to 5, fabulously. new outlast stay fabulous foundation from easy, breezy, beautiful covergirl. next week the u.s. supreme court will hear challenges to appropriatition 8 and doma. arguably the two most for cases involving gay rights ever to go before the high court. already right now as i speak to you, a line of people looking to attend the arguments. began form three day ace go. first case on tuesday will be collingsworth v. perry. proposition 8. at issue is whether the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment prohibits california from defining marriage as a union between a man and woman. in 2010, u.s. district court ruled that prop 8 was unconstitutional. then a little over a year ago, the ninth circuit court of appeals upheld that decision.

president obama's justice department submitted an amicus brief last month urging the court to overturn prop 8 saying the president and attorney general have determined the classification based on sexual orientation should be subjected to heightened scrutiny for equal protection. on wednesday, the court will hear united states v. windsor, challenge of the defense of marriage act. whether section 3 of doma, defines marriages between a man and a woman, violates the 5th amendment guaranteed of equal protection under the law is applied to persons of the same sex who are legally married under laws of their state. in short, can the federal government deny gay married couples access hundreds of federal benefits that come with marriage? former president bill clinton signed doma into law 17 years ago. in an op-ed earlier this month he said he was wrong. when i signed the billy included a statement with the admonition that enactment of the legislation should not despite the fierce and at time divisive

rhetoric surrounding it understood to provide an excuse for discrimination. reading those words today i know now that even worse than providing an excuse for discrimination, the law is itself discriminatory and should be overturned. joining me now is dean hara, widower of representative gerry studds. camilla taylor, recognizing the civil rights with lbgt community. melissa murray. it is great to have you here. these are big cases. i want to begin with you because you experienced the injury of doma which is to say what did doma mean in your life? what did it deny you would have had if doma was not will? >> i was in an interesting position because i was in the house with my husband during the

debate in 1996. and even then, we saw that it was blatant discrimination against gay people. i remember that gerry went on the floor and spoke he made as much into and did everything every other member of congress did. but yet, the protections that their spouses would have would be denied me. little did i know that we would get married six years later and little did i know that he would die two years after that. it hurt then knowing that congress was putting a law on the books that hurt me personally. it was even harder after he died to know that what was in abstract point in the 1996 was now concrete reality that i was denied anything that a spouse of a federal employee for 25 years would have been given in due course. >> when would that have been?

i mean -- presumably -- pension benefits. >> pension benefits. health insurance. even something as simple and small as $255 social security death benefit. i got a letter of rejection from the social security. it hurts when they -- you actually see something and it took two years, first, to get the government to say it was because of doma that i was being denied these rights. originally gerry didn't fill out the right paperwork. >> doma seems to me not -- we are going to play the local anthony game because that's what you do when you have a panel discussion about the big cases on the weekend before it happens. let's just do it. it seems to me that given ken kennedy's record he will be amenable to targmentes in the doma case. >> i think that's absolutely right. i think actually -- law professors of the nature around the country are all very confident that doma will be

struck down. i think that a lot of them are expressing more interest in discussing whether various outcomes could be in perry because there is such a feeling of confidence that doma is so e constitutional and a safe thing to strike it down. it is a very conservative thing to do to strike it down. there are a lot of conservative arguments why doma should fall. >> what are those arguments? >> with the federal -- what the federal government did is unprecedented and saying it was going to fail to respect state law determinations of who is married. and federal government had a has never done that before. we can all think it would be ridiculous for a non-gay married couple in arkansas to be denied a federal benefit like -- dean was solely because the federal government has its own determination of who is married and there -- they are going to decide that arkansas's laws don't come port sufficiently with its own notions. the federal government has never done that. >> there has been a wide -- a

lot more variation. >> there has been a lot of differences in terms of marriage. marriage has been thought of as almost exclusively a province of the states, creature of state law. doma was unpress denled and it was a federal government making a practical law saying it would only define marriage to be between a man and woman. so for conservative justices like scalia, thomas on this federalism argument, the states' rights, one that's very appealing. >> do you think that extends past kennedy? can we imagine -- can you imagine a scenario in which you have a real broad and unanimous kind of court coming out? brown sort of moment where everybody just says yes, this is absolutely unconstitutional. >> right. >> it would be -- really would be something. part of that kind of -- sort of the political power of brown, for instance, was unanimity. it was the court speaking in one voice.

declaring this obviously horrible practice, obviously horrible. unconstitution zblal there is something that everyone on the court can get onboard with. liberal wing of the court can get onboard of the idea of striking down a law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation and marriage. and the conservative wing of the court can strike down a law that takes away from the state something that historically has been theirs to define. will is a little something for everyone in dom zbla we should be irrational. thomas, alito, scalia, they will twist themselves into any shape to avoid, i think, overturning doma. i think they are partisans and republican hacks. i don't think that they are justices. who can be trusted to do the constitutional thing. i have no illusions it will be very, very close. it is not going to be brown. >> in terms of legitimacy of the court as an institutional body, the idea of striking down doma will be more palatable to those conservative justices than upholding a right to same-sex marriage. >> this is where -- this brings

us to the -- thornier issue. perry. which is the prompting case. there was a lot of talk when the case was brought in california, there is a lot of talk in the movement. right. of guy rites folks saying is the court ready for this. is this -- this issue ripe and sufficiently that we want to bring this to the court now and a lot of thinking and kind of litigation strategy right about when you bring an issue to the court. there was a lot of worry this was too early and people were saying this to -- bringing the suit. what happened in the lower courts has been surprising. i want to talk about that and the prospects in the supreme court after this. for to live a more natural life. in a convenient two bar pack. this is nature valley. nature at its most delicious.

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scene, your late husband, gerry studds, you were talking about him on the into. it was very powerful. >> i have paid every single penny as much as every member of this house has for that pension.

my partner, should he survive me is not entitled to one penny. i don't think that's fair, mr. speaker. i don't think most americans think that is fair. and that is really what the second section of this bill is about. to make sure we continue that unfairness. >> unfairness and that in-law. the doma case we just mentioned, will is -- i think, more of a sense that it is -- it has better shot before the court. prop 8 case is a little more complicated. were is the prop 8 case more complicated? why is there less of the confidence about when the court will do will? >> well, there are a number of way it is prop 8 case could come down. it could result in a ruling that requires all states around the country to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples or could do something more limited. >> the would be a very big deal. this would be a declaration by the court that it is -- marriage is a constitutional right. that would essentially be what the declaration is. right? it is unconstitutional to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in the provision of the institution of

marriage. >> absolutely. it can do so on equality or liberty principles. it could decide either it is a fundamental right to marry for all of us regardless of sexual orientation around the country or decide as a matter of quality of principles that all marriage -- must be struck down or more limited. it could do something along the lines of the 9th circuit held which applies in a very direct sense. exclusively to california. and pointing out that there is something novel here that the -- state of california determined it was fundamental right under the state constitution for same-sex couples to marry and then the people of california by a very narrow margin and proposition 8 chose to take that fundamental right. not from everybody. >> bunch of people who after the supreme court says you can get married a bunch of people get married, as you were married. you, massachusetts, other states, you married. and now then after that, the state comes in and basically says no, no, you are not married. you were married and now through this bizarre reversed process we turn you presto into not

married. >> not exactly what happened. so -- the people who got married during the time when marriages were allowed in california and then the moment prop 8 was enacted, those marriages are still valid under california law. you have an odd limbo. 18,000 couples that are still married. but there is month gay marriage going forward from proposition 8. from november 2008 forward there is no gay marriage in california. this sort of odd legal limbo. there are avenues you can take. one is to think of this as a california moment and think about the idea of taking back rights that have already been conferred. >> we compare it to abortion earlier. if we get that sort of decision that imposes using brown -- >> the roe v. wade of marriage. >> i would like that. i would like marriage rights to be extended to all same-sex couples in all 50 states. it may have to be done by the supreme court just as interracial couples were allowed

to marry. the backlash against that will be staggering and so -- in some ways that is what i most hope for that decision and most fear. >> that's inning. it would be a roe v. wade moment. >> i think we should be looking at ruth bader ginsburg. although she is progressive on social values, she is a conservative in terms of her view of the court's institutional role. in a lecture at nyu in the 1990s she was very critical and said there was a moment stuff going on the ground about lib rlizing abortion and the court intervened and this moment about prompted this wave of backlashes for the next 40 years. >> what's also interest being the ginsburg history rise she herself is a litigator who is bringing civil rights equality cases on issues of sex discrimination against women. sometimes sex discrimination against men which is a litigation strategy is her litigation strategy was incredibly narrow.

she would find these sort of narrow slivered cases and bring them boom, boom, boom, before the court. and has this kind of philosophy that you don't want these big sweeping kind of moments. >> well, in some way that's what the doma case, defense of marriage act in that the edie windsor case, defensive marriage case, only recognize same-sex marriages in states they are already legal because of state laws and those individuals would be treated the same as all other married couples in that state that would not be second class marriages. i think that -- that -- some people say, well, we need to deal with marriage or they -- even gay people don't want to get married yet. maybe it is because it is -- in name only there are no benefits really attached to it that -- when we got married i knew that we were married but for federal purposes and anything dealing with inheritance, taxes, you know, we don't have any children but all of the kind of family law issues we were still treated

as second class citizens and same -- no, you are not married. >> point here beinging that striking down doma would be massively transformational. short of the kind of constitutional moment that may come. >> hundreds of thousands much people in the country that are hurt right now and married. >> dean is putting his finger a common thread for both cases. in many is expect, both of these cases are not so much about marriage as they are about affirming human dignity and equality. and -- >> you are speaking right to anthony kennedy at this moment, aren't you? >> some of the people that are most affected when you strike down marriage ban and affirm equality of everyone in a particular state, for example, are the kids. gay kids. who may have no desire to more write. not even thinking about relationships at that point but who are being told by their families, by their churches and kids in their schools, that there something wrong with them. that they can never aspire to the same kind of family as everybody else.

>> can we talk about what the possibilities are should -- specifically when you -- i cut you off before when you were talking about the court doing something like what the 9th circuit did which is short of this sweeping decision what a would that look like? >> it would limit the force of the ruling to california. there would be same-sex marriage and there would be same-sex in the other states that permit it. it wouldn't be the kind of sweeping decision like loving versus virginia. interestingly, though, it is a great parallel to sort of think about. loving versus virginia comes in 1967. 1 years after the court decides brown versus board of education which was the seminal decision dealing with race discrimination. immediately after brown there is another case in the supreme court, maim versus name. same issue. racial discrimination in the context of marriage. the court punts. it doesn't take that case. because it knows that it is a divisive issue even as we have gotten to immigration and public schools we haven't gotten there in the bedrooms. the court says we are going to punt and wait 13 years before deciding. >> it i want to talk about

marriage more broadly and what its significance is legally. n. a trimmer? no. we got nothing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday. yes, maybe a little bit over here. this spring, take on more lawn for less. not bad for our first spring. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get ortho home defense, a special buy at just $6.88. plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day women's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for women's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day 50+.

all your important legal matters in just minutes. protect your family... and launch your dreams.

at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. . you said something induring break about the fact that this has been a grassroots legal strategy, as much as a topdown. >> people were thinking gay movement is pushing for marriage and it was not. it percolated presidents cup the bottom. as far back from material '70s when the first same-sex couples started applying for marriage licenses and were denied. couples in hawaii sued. with a lawyer who i learned they are hired to do this. i think this issue a lot of people realized scared hrc and other big gay orgs to death. they did want to go there. we are seeing a reverse. if we push marriage we will get everything else. the argument is we have to get everything else and and then maybe we can get marriage in 50 years. >> relates in an interesting way of the question -- how -- when the justices are analyzing a

case like this, right the point you made about the court in this realized that this was too controversial too quickly and punted. and i think, you know, there is a lot of -- justices are embedded in society. institutions of america and see american public opinion. there's some level of constitutional. when they are walking into a case like this. >> i think that's exactly right. i think they are very attentive to what's going on the ground. in fact, although there has been a lot of movement on the question of same-sex marriage there has been a lot of pushback. there are a ton of states that have constitutional amendments or state level laws that prohibit the recognition of same-sex marriage and certainly there -- they are attentive to that. as have you great strides in this handful of states, ten states plus the district of columbia now, there is still an opposition in other parts of the country. i think that they are going to be weary of getting foof ahead of this question. >> i think -- agree that the court likes to see itself as

doing something of a cleanup job and bringing in the few states into the national consensus. i also think will is a concern of the leg and i this court will not want to deliver the next embarrassment. >> the case that upheld the interment of japanese citizens during world we are. up there with ferguson with the horrible decisions of the supreme court. >> i'm very optimistic wear going to see very good rulings on both cases. and it is a matter of how broad. >> citizens united, bush v. gore. >> mr versus texas. >> demonstrated they are not embarrassable, i don't think. >> here is -- i want to read from judge walker's opinion, the circuit court. >> district court. >> sorry, district court opinion. preparesition 8 fails to possess even irrational basis which is an amazing sentence to right, basically saying all laws before you get to the constitution, you

have to have -- has to be a rational basis for laws. even fails rational basis test. evidence presented at rile shows gays and lesbian, type of minority strict scrutiny designed to protect the trial record shows strict scrutiny is the appropriate standard or review to apply to legislative classifications based on sexual orientation. explain this in constitutional law and why that's such a meaningful sentence by the district court judge. >> some classifications, for example, if law singles out people because of their race or sex that warrant a greater degree of skepticism by courts and looking at those laws because we know from our history as a nation that there has been a history of discrimination against those groups. and that -- the color of your skin or your sex doesn't have to do with your ability to contribute it in society. and so -- courts will accord either height and skrut my in the context of sex or race and in order to make sure the state bears the burden of showing why it is for. >> we could come out of a

decision in these cases that -- does the same for lgbt folks in the country. >> that's right. who has the burden is very for. not just in the context of marriage cases, of course. if you are considering an employment claim of discrimination biby public school teachers this could be a real sea change. >> first openly gay member of congress, gerry studds. dan savage. author of the syndicated column "sex ask love." we didn't get to your amazing article marriage of punishment but will send a link on our website. thought provoking. thank you for joining us this morning. what you should know for the week ahead. book ahead and save up to 20 percent at doubletree.com, so you can sit back, relax and enjoy. doubletree by hilton. where the little things mean everything.

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ends sunday. superior service, best selection, lowest price, guaranteed. ♪ sleep train ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ so what should you know for the week coming up? you should know today is my final day hosting up. this job has been an absolute joy and honor to hold down. it's the best job in tv. maybe the best job in the world.

i have learned so much over the past 18 months of sitting at this table because of the incredible guests we've been graced with. people from literally all walks of life, from senators, food stamp recipients. walmart workers to ex-gang members, to union organizers, conservative journalists and activists, historians and philosophers and doctors and farmers and he is aists and rappers. all of these people who sit here at this desk and share their expertise and perspectives and experiences. i've learned as well because of you the viewers who built a community around this show that models precisely the kind of royaling dispew tashs, respectful informed conversation that's what the public's -- thank you for your commitment to the show and allowing me to learn from you. if you're a fan of the show, a crazy diehard who set their alarm for 4:50 on a saturday morning like a maniac, you should know i have very, very good news. the first bit of good news is up isn't going anywhere. salon -- msnbc cycle co-host,

steve kornacki will be taking over for me. he will be hosting the show at this desk, the same format, time slot and spirit. he's a fantastic analyst and curious and deeply kind and good-natured you ared. i think he's an absolute perfect fit. during the republican primary season when i was asked to host live coverage on the saturday night of the main caucus, i would characterize my knowledge of republican party politics as fairly limited but somehow we had the good fortune of knowing steve who knew every single politician in the state, what races they won and lost and how the political disputes were laying out. if you crave deep knowledge, you're going to love steve. also, another bit of good news for uppers, the executive producer of this show, jonathan larson who has been my partner in developing the show is going to stay with up with steve so the high standards he's brought to the production of the show will remain. you should know i'll be watching up with steve kornacki on

saturday april 13th, you should too. if you enjoy the show and format and spirit of conversation and curiosity and openness. we're going to preserve the essential features weeknights at 8:00 p.m. in my new time slot. we'll bring you new fresh voices and collectively thinking through the news with rigor and passion. you'll have an opportunity to follow stories as they arc across the week and intervene in the national conversation about politics, policy and culture. i'll still be me and we're going to have a lot of fun and cause trouble. you'll have nine hours of television to watch every week at least. finally, you should know the way tv is produced and presented has a nasty tendency to reproduce, a lot about the broader structure of american society and economy that i'm committed to fighting against. every weekends you watch this show, you see my name and face. what you don't see are the dozens of people who work here onset and in the makeup room and the control room and the incredible brilliant funny staff

of us who breathe life into this show every weekend. if you enjoy this show, you're enjoying their work as much as mine. everything we touch in our lives, the shirts on our backs, the keyboard you type on and the coffee you drink is produced by a chain of human beings we never meet but who pour forth their labor for the things we love. to those who have done that with vigor and joy and brilliance at up. thank you. thank you at home for joining us today and for the past year and a half. i hope you'll join me weeknights starting a week from tomorrow, monday, april 1st at 8:00 p.m. eastern for my new program at msnbc. as i mentioned, starting saturday, april 13th. i hope you'll join me watching up with steve kornacki. until then, we'll look back at the discussions i'm most proud of. the debates, interviews, analysis and epiphanies chosen by me that best represent what we're trying to do here on up and in my new show.

that's. saturday and sunday at 8:00 eastern time. up next is melissa harris-perry on today's mhp, the brilliant constitutional scholar kenji yoshino regarding doma and the prop cases going before the supreme court. melissa harris-perry coming up next. we'll see you next week here on up. [ applause ] [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter...

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